Episode 16: What Makes a Healthy Leader?

With John Lin, Paul McMullen (LPC), and special guest Shannon Pugh (Care and Mobilization Pastor, Irving Bible Church). A conversation on what healthy leadership looks like, why it's hard, and practical ways to grow in it.

John Lin [00:00]

In today's episode, we're gonna be talking about what it means to be a healthy leader. To do that, I wanted to share a quick story about my friend and mentor, Pastor Ted. Pastor Ted was the founding and lead pastor of Access Church. And about a year and a half ago, after a short bout with cancer, he passed away. Ted was a healthy leader. That came up over and over and over again as people reflected on his life and his ministry and the influence that he had on them. know, Ted didn't grow the church to thousands. He didn't have this huge social media following, but he loved people really well. He had a deep faith and love for God, for his wife Amy, his two daughters, Emi and Mia and of course their dog Jax.

Ted was kind and he had a really big heart. And even when we faced anxiety ridden things in the church, I rarely saw him operate out of fear. He was someone that was very generous and open-handed. And even though he could have used and leveraged his power and held onto it, he never did that. He was so open-handed and he really sought to empower people that he led with.

But probably the thing that I'll remember the most about Pastor Ted is that throughout our eight years or so of working together, I shared some really hard things with him along the way. And in those moments, Ted was there for me. He didn't try to fix my problems. He didn't try to fix me. Instead, he was just a safe presence. He offered his compassion, his attentiveness and his presence. And that presence was healing in so many ways for me. So when I think about healthy leadership, I think of Pastor Ted. So in today's conversation, that's what we want to talk about. We want to take a look at what does it mean to be a healthy leader and why is being a healthy leader so hard? And what are some practical ways that we can all move in that direction towards healthier leadership. And I just want to say at the outset something very clearly. If you influence other people in any way, you are a leader. It doesn't matter what your title is or isn't. So parents, teachers, plumbers, pastors, business leaders, managers, sales clerks, whatever role you have in this season of your life.

We do hope that you'll come along for the ride as we talk about this really important topic, because I think all three of us really agree and believe that the world needs healthy leaders more than ever.

I'm your host, John Lin, and today I'm joined by my co-host, Paul McMullen, who is a licensed therapist and regular on the show, as well as a very special guest, Shannon Pugh. Hey, Shannon. Yeah, so glad to have you here.

Shannon Pugh [03:45]

Hi. Thank you.

John Lin [03:49]

Shannon serves as the care and mobilization pastor at Irving Bible Church. She joined their staff team in 2014 and oversees their counseling referral ministry, special needs ministry, and hope and healing ministry. And I'm sure you oversee a lot of other stuff too. Before moving into her current role with IBC, Shannon was a special education teacher. And so she lives in the Big D, that's Dallas in case you're not from Texas, with her husband and Frenchie pug mix Josephine. And to relax, Shannon enjoys going for walks, playing video games, and cooking for her foodie husband. Is there a particular video game that you like?

Shannon Pugh [04:29]

I like open world RPGs and first-person shooters. Can I say that? It's an outlet for me. It's an outlet for me.

Paul McMullen, LPC [04:41]

It's a characteristic of great leaders, great leaders.

John Lin [04:41]

I would not have guessed that.

Shannon Pugh [04:43]

I don't like the super realistic stuff. It has to be kind of like cartoony, but you know, it's an outlet.

John Lin [04:49]

My kids are super into Brawl Stars, Clash Royale, do you play any of those? No, okay. okay, yeah.

Shannon Pugh [04:53]

Mm-mm. No, I don't do like, you know, multiplayer, you know, all that stuff. I like to be by myself in a world that's different than this world. Where I can shoot things, yes, absolutely. Yeah, for sure.

John Lin [05:03]

I can't. I can't. We'll talk about that in another episode.

Paul McMullen, LPC [05:05]

where you can shoot things.

John Lin [05:13]

Well, Paul and I have actually had the pleasure of getting to know you and work with you through the partnership that IBC has, Irving Bible has with Watershed Initiative. And we have so appreciated and loved your commitment to cultivating healthy leadership in your church.

We thought, it'd be awesome if you could join us for this conversation. So thanks again for joining us today. Before, yeah, before we jump into all that stuff, just two quick invitations. If this podcast has been helpful in any way, would you consider showing us some love by just rating, leaving a review or by subscribing? And secondly, if you're looking for a clinically trained and Christian therapist, we would love to help with your journey. We would consider that an honor. So please reach out to us.

Shannon Pugh [05:34]

Thanks for having me.

John Lin [06:00]

Okay, well, let's get into this conversation that I've really been looking forward to. I wanted to start with the question of why. Like, why is this something important to talk about? I know both of you care deeply about healthy leadership, and so why is this important to you?

Paul McMullen, LPC [06:19]

Well, this has been a passion for me for a while as someone that's been in church leadership and have been in conversation with and in connection with people in different church leadership roles for a long time. And I know we're talking about something beyond church leadership, but that's just been the world that I've been in.

Some of the groups that I'm in now have leaders from a wide variety of backgrounds in the business world and in nonprofit. But in the church in particular, there is a sense in which leadership is something that ends up reflecting Christ, both to the community and to the world. And we're just very familiar with how often that does not reflect well.

And I think there's some systemic challenges that our leaders in churches face that have not been healthy. And so it's been a burden on my heart to support leaders that are in ministry in particular and to help them find more health because that's a journey that I have been on for long time. And I'm just passionate that.

Church leadership is not a place of unhealth, but it's a place where we're looked to as healthy leaders. And we've got a long way to go before we get there, but that's where my heart is,

Shannon Pugh [07:51]

Yeah, I mean, I definitely come from more of a church leadership lens as well. But my first thought was just sustainability and longevity. So I would say that's more specific to ministry because the ministry is uniquely challenging and kind of pushes the limits of your own capacity in ways that maybe leadership in other contexts don't as much. But I would say in general also, I use the word influence. And if we have influence over people and we are not healthy, then we can do harm, like a lot of harm. So not only misrepresenting God and His character, but also like real true harm. And I think sometimes when we hear about moral failures in the church, like this is what it ties back to, were they a healthy leader or not? And were they in a healthy leadership culture or not? Because it's individual and group culture, I would say.

John Lin [09:05]

that's right. I think you both alluded to this idea of how leadership or being in a position of leadership or being in a position of authority, it amplifies the things that are happening in your own life. And because of that influence, it's multiplicative, the impact is greater.

So I was thinking about my own family system. Like if my kids hear one of their classmates cuss, That's one thing, because it's just a peer if they hear me cuss, my gosh, like dad just said a swear word, right? It's a lot bigger deal. And I remember hearing this idea that well, healthy things grow. But the reality is unhealthy things grow too. That's why we have weeds and weed killer in our lawns and gardens, because things that we don't want to be there will multiply just as fast, if not more quickly. And so it is a, yeah, that just dovetails with what both of y'all are saying about the weight, the significance of leadership and why it's important. So I wanted to ask y'all, what does healthy leadership feel like? I know that's a little bit of a weird question, because we can go ahead and define it and we will, but I wanted to start with that question. What does it feel like? So if y'all wanna think about a time where you were under healthy leadership and what that felt like, but I thought that might be a good way to help people lean into this conversation.

Shannon Pugh [10:34]

So you mean like, how does it feel to me while I'm leading? Or how does it feel when you're under healthy leadership? Okay, Nope, I don't, nope.

John Lin [10:39]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's talk about that. Like, how does it feel when you're under someone? But I guess if you feel that to talk about it, how does it feel like to lead an healthy way? Yeah.

Shannon Pugh [10:52]

I would say... Safe, you know, like it feels safe, like that's kind of a cliche answer maybe, but knowing that you can give feedback, you can try new things, you can say that didn't work for me, you can ask for things that you need, and that that's not gonna be punished or dismissed or invalidated, but truly taken, and with gratitude and a desire to act on it.

John Lin [11:30]

Yeah, safety.

Paul McMullen, LPC [11:32]

Yeah, and I think it feels like good communication. It feels like leaders taking responsibility for their part, having good boundaries in that area too.

I know we're going to define it a little bit more, but openness to feedback, kind like Shannon was saying. And I think there's a receptivity to the people that they're with, but also a sense of ownership of the vision and conviction about I'm going to do the right thing even when it's not popular. So there's a lot of things that go into it leadership and I do think it crosses boundaries between churches and other organizations, but yeah, there's a lot.

John Lin [12:19]

Yeah. I appreciate that idea of safety and this is going to get into what are the qualities of healthy leadership, but like even as I thought about Pastor Ted, that was one of the primary things I felt with him. I was never afraid, right? And it's not that, yeah, and that's not the same as not being accountable or feeling, um invested in something. Sure, there was stress at times, but it wasn't that I was afraid of, yeah, that's right, punishment or shame from him. And that was very empowering because like you said, that enables risk taking, it enables learning because that means we have to fail and be okay with that and not be afraid to like try to hide that, right? Like, okay, I tried that, that didn't work.

Yeah, so anyways, I just thought about that as you were sharing that. Well, I thought it would be helpful to get like a working definition. This is not in our notes, right? So before this, I asked ChatTPT like, give me a working definition based on the work of like Peter Scazzero, Brene Brown, Carey Nieuwhof, and some other thought leaders in the area of healthy leadership. And this is what it came with. I thought it was helpful, but this could just be a working definition as we think about this topic. A healthy leader is someone who leads from spiritual and emotional wholeness, sustains their life and leadership over time, and creates environments of trust, courage, and integrity.

So I like that, I'll just read it one more time. A healthy leader is someone who leads from spiritual and emotional wholeness, sustains their life and leadership over time, and creates environments of trust, courage, and integrity. So if y'all were to choose a few traits to describe what healthy leadership means to you, or how you've observed that in other people, or that you're even seeking to emulate or embody in your own life, like what would they be?

Shannon Pugh [14:29]

Yeah, I came up with three, but admittedly they're kind of categories. So, okay, the first one I thought of was self-aware. Like if you are not aware of what's going on inside of you, you are gonna continue to respond out of your shadow side, your trauma, your bad motivations, all of those things. And so I think self-aware is really, really important. Secondly, well-boundaried, and that means both internal and external, right? So those external boundaries are, don't check my email on Fridays and Saturdays because I need to spend time with my family, or I Sabbath every week. I use Google Voice for work calls so that I can turn off those notifications and people don't have my personal cell phone number when I go on vacation.

Things like that, but then the internal boundaries of I can't change how someone feels and it's not my job. Like their relationship with God, how they feel is not my responsibility. And that's that whole like responsible to but not responsible for. Obviously as a pastor I'm responsible to people to influence and hopefully cultivate emotional and spiritual health, but I am not responsible for their emotional and spiritual health. So those internal boundaries when somebody's upset with you, for you to just go, I think this is not a me problem. I think that's a them problem, but is there something that I should take from this, which goes to the third one, which is just humble. You gotta be humble and open to feedback, open to criticism open to trying things differently, allowing other people to try things differently. I've had a lot of experience in the last few years kind of handing over some things that I led for very long time to new people and just going, okay, like I want them to feel empowered to do things differently and I'm gonna support them in that. Like, hey, actually I made this mistake like 10 years ago and you're about to make it and so let's just like stop and think about this.

But also like, hey, let's try it. I don't think that'll work or I'm not sure how that'll work, but let's do it together. But I really think my like word for 2026 is open. I just wanna be open to feedback. I wanna be open to new ways of thinking, different perspectives, different ways of doing things. And I think that's really, really important that we don't get defensive when people say, what if we did this differently or that didn't work for me or this is how I feel. I think that's really important.

Paul McMullen, LPC [17:28]

Wow. Shannon, you took my notes. You saw them before because we...

Shannon Pugh [17:32]

Alright, well, that's me. I was peeking over your shoulder. Well, I mean, I was in your Emotionally Healthy Leaders group, so maybe...

Paul McMullen, LPC [17:39]

or I took your notes. Well, I'm just so happy and so proud that you remembered.

The first one on my list, and again, we're talking about leadership across the board, but I said prayerful. And that's because I want a leader that's rooted in their connection to God that their first thought of what do need to do in a challenging situation is to pray, which means they're slowing down and they're connecting to God. And I just think that that's a heart posture that's gonna yield good fruit. But my second word was humble and I was actually talking with another therapist here at our office about it, Adrian Jones, and he used the word humble and I was because I was thinking about vulnerable, open, a lot of the words that Shannon just said. Someone that can be a leader and wear that hat and still be receptive to feedback, to correction. I don't like it when there's leaders that don't have any accountability and there are situations where that's the case. So leaders that build in accountability where there's not that, I see that as incredibly healthy and that's a humble move. And then the third one I had, I also was having a hard time finding the right word, but I use the word differentiated, which comes from a book, The Leader's Journey, that I think is from the 90s. It's a blue book. But I don't remember the author's name at the moment. Thank goodness for Google. Yeah, yeah. Is that on our list? That may be on the notes list already. Yeah.

John Lin [19:32]

Wait, by Jim and Trisha? Jim Harrington and Trisha Taylor? No, Jim's a,

Shannon Pugh [19:36]

There you go.

John Lin [19:40]

Jim and Trisha are friends. Jim's a mentor of mine. Yeah. He lives here in Houston. Yeah, yeah. Jim's amazing. No, no, it's a big deal. He's amazing. I mean, he's someone, I would name him as another person who is a very healthy leader. Yeah, both of them. Yeah.

Shannon Pugh [19:43]

name drop. Drop's like no big deal. Like I know him personally.

Paul McMullen, LPC [19:45]

Wow, okay. Well... I think their book was before its time. I think it was early on in some of these, at least my awareness of some of these conversations and was really, really good. But differentiated, part of what that means is, is boundaried and Shannon, you said that really well, but words that kind of go along with that are.

They live under conviction. They know what their identity is. And so it's not cocky like my way or the highway, but it is the sense of, I'm not just going to be swayed back and forth by what's popular or what people are not going to like about it. I'm doing this in a line with something that's bigger than just how people feel in this moment. And that's how I'm going to lead. And to me, that's a core for healthy leadership.

Shannon Pugh [20:52]

Yeah, our senior pastor has just a phrase that he says over and over and over, start with conviction, start with conviction. And then there's two other things, one of them, stay the course, stay connected, start with conviction, stay connected, stay the course. All right. And he has talked about that a lot in relation to us at IBC pursuing being a multi-ethnic church. It's not easy.

And when he first rolled out that vision in 2019, right before COVID hit and our kind of whole country went on this journey of racial reconciliation in some ways and just, I mean, the whole George Floyd thing, like it was a lot all at once. And unfortunately there were people who just misunderstood as much as he has pointed back at the Bible.

They've misunderstood and seen it as something that it's not something political, not biblical, and you know, all these things. And people have left our church and that's challenging in multiple ways. And I think he's done a really beautiful job modeling start with conviction. Because if you start with your convictions and they're biblically grounded, then when somebody gets mad at you, you're not gonna...

You know, it's still hard. Nobody likes for people to be mad at them, but you're also gonna go, but this is, this is actually a conviction of mine and I'm not gonna, and so I think he's, he's really done a nice job of modeling how to stay, walk that middle line of not, well, if you wanna leave, don't let the door hit you on the way out. Like that's not, he's deeply grieved when people leave our church. And yet also, He is starting with his convictions and so, you know, he's gonna stay the course and if they can't come along with him, then he's not going to try to convince them to stay, like over function in trying to convince them to stay or go back on what his convictions are just so that they'll be happy and stay at the church. And so I've learned a lot from watching him navigate that and he's naturally a Peacemaker out of you know, y'all are familiar with the Enneagram, but he's a nine and he just wants everybody to be so happy and So he's just done such a good job modeling healthy leadership where you are differentiated But you start with your convictions And you stay the course even when people aren't happy and yet don't cross that line into well if you want to leave leave You know because that's not healthy

John Lin [23:41]

y'all have just shared about the traits of healthy leadership. but yeah, I just wanted to highlight what I've heard you say. Both of y'all talked about being humble, and humble is expressed in an attitude of being on your knees first. let that be your first instinct.

Shannon Pugh [23:57]

Yeah, it's convicting.

John Lin [24:00]

before I strategize and get my vision and vision board and whatever, talk to, I'm gonna get on my knees and pray or seek God's counsel there or even just acknowledge I don't know what to do. And that humility, that's self-awareness. You mentioned that Shannon, the utter criticalness of being aware of your stuff being aware of, man, I notice I am really triggered right now and I'm showing up in a way that is not aligned with what I believe and I need to own that, right? I think y'all both talked about being boundaried or differentiated. Those are, I think, two ways of saying the same thing. I love that phrase of the distinguishing between what we are responsible to and responsible for. And so often leaders, because we care, because we want to do a good job and the vision matters to us, it is natural, I think, to over function. I think there's something about the system that biases us towards over-functioning and trying to fix and do the work for people when in fact we can't. And then that goes back to humility because it's like realizing like, actually I don't have the power to change anybody. And then y'all talked about, those are the main things, So, that's such great stuff. I did want to ask y'all like, what do you think about the role of competence?

If we were talking about being an effective leader, that'd be very obvious, right? Like a leader has to able to cast vision or work with teams, build consensus, all this stuff. How do you think competence intersects with being a healthy leader?

Paul McMullen, LPC [25:48]

I've it said that you can teach competence, like you can grow in the skill set. And I kind of disagree with, like, you can't teach character. Hopefully we're all being trained in character. But it's like, if you're gonna hire somebody, for example, you hire the person with character and you work on their competence rather than vice versa. I do think confidence matters my church that we're part of is going through a senior pastor search and obviously it matters if you're being hired for a role, you need to be able to, your gifting needs to align with what the role requires and I think there's a humility that goes along with that and being okay with like, okay, that's not my lane and somebody else's lane, that's good. But yeah, I would just.

I would say it matters but character matters more in the Kingdom in my opinion.

Shannon Pugh [26:52]

Yeah, I don't know that I have, that's a great answer. I love that. I don't know that I have a great answer. I was like, I mean, he kind of has to be like competent, but I couldn't put words to it, which is what Paul just said. But if I have to choose between like the most competent person and the healthiest person, I'm gonna choose the healthiest person and I'll teach them what they need to know. But obviously, you can't hire, and it kinda depends on the role as well. You can teach people something, some stuff. Part of what I oversee is our special needs ministry. when I'm bringing somebody into that very specialized role, the reality is I do have to prioritize competence a little bit more because safety's on the line.

You know, I think it's a depending on the role. Maybe there's a little bit of a, you know, is it 50-50? Is it 60-40, 70-30? And I think the more like highly specialized the role is, you do have to prioritize competence a little bit more. But yeah, like I said, if I'm interviewing, you know, three people for a position, I'm not gonna be looking for who's the most competent. I'm gonna be looking for like who.

Who is self-aware? Who is eager to learn? Who is, you know, all of those things?

Paul McMullen, LPC [28:24]

Yeah, if I'm going into surgery, I really want the most competent surgeon, but I really want a surgeon that's also healthy emotionally because they haven't been out, know, freaking out and living whatever crazy life so that they'll be ready to be competent. So it goes hand in hand.

Shannon Pugh [28:30]

It's so funny because like, so my husband has epilepsy and so he's had to have a lot of brain surgeries. So you say like it's not brain surgery, it is actually with him. And we have just always joked like surgeons are so, they have the worst bedside manner. But you know what, if they're gonna be cutting open his brain, I would rather than be competent. And so I think that's a great example of like, I don't care if they're like completely out of it, have zero social skills. Like I want them to be really good at cutting open his brain. But there are other rules where I would definitely prioritize your other things. So it's a great example.

I won't name the hospital system that he's in or the surgeon or anything like that, but it has been a big topic of conversation for us over the years.

John Lin [29:36]

Hmm. All right, we'll leave it at that. Yeah, yeah. This, cause that was just an interesting question to me, right? Cause society does tend to value competence a lot and churches tend to emphasize competence a lot until stuff hits the fan. And then it's like, my goodness, you know? Yeah. But maybe that gets into this question of what makes it so hard to be a healthy leader? Like.

I think Paul, you had alluded to there are some systematic, systemic things, structural things that may make it hard, but can you all speak to that? What makes being a healthy leader so difficult?

Paul McMullen, LPC [30:20]

Yeah, I think that certainly from a church culture where if you have the pastor, whatever the leadership title is, not only are people looking at you for leadership, you're also the character and the moral leader. You're exhibiting what a mature person should look like.

And what happens is there's very little place for, sometimes there's very little place for vulnerability and weakness in that role. Like what does the Christian leader in a church do with their own messy life?

Is that hidden? Is it swept under the rug? And so often it is. So often there's no place for the messiness of life and the doubts and the fears and the stuff from my family of origin that's bubbling up because this is the first time I've been this stressed out. And when there's not any place for that, bad stuff happens. And so there's this expectation that leaders in at least that culture and the...

Christian American culture have their stuff all together. And again, we're talking about de-hire for character competence. We're all in the process of being formed from glory to glory, right? Like we're all in process in our character formation, looking more and more like Christ. And that should be an expectation of what happens in a leadership culture in a church, rather than assuming you've got it together as we hire you and that you're supposed to coast forward in your character that just doesn't work. there's more but I want to hear what Shannon thinks too.

Shannon Pugh [32:02]

as I was thinking about this, I think it's different for every person. What makes it hard to be a healthy leader is different for every person. And I think that's, I am a huge fan of the Enneagram because it does not focus on behavior, it focuses on motivation. So let's say you've got two leaders who struggle with people pleasing. They don't stick to their convictions when people get mad. Well, for one person, It might be because they like to just keep the peace, they don't like conflict, conflict's scary to them. For another person, it might be that their entire sense of self-worth is based on what other people think of them and that they only think that they're worthwhile if they have any worth, if someone feels like they're doing the right thing or helping them. Same with perfectionism. You could have two people, but one person, it's because...

They don't want other people to criticize their work and point out things. For another person, it could be all of inner criticism. Like, I'm gonna criticize myself and that makes me feel ashamed, so I'm gonna try to do things perfectly. And so, everybody has their own, and it's not that simple. It's so complex. Everybody has their whole own life that they are leading out of all of their experiences the ways that they're naturally wired, the things that they've been taught, good or bad. And so that's why you have to be self-aware, because I've got to know my own shadow side and the places where I am most likely, the scenarios where I am most likely to, you know, dip into that unhealth in order to stay, you know, feel like I'm safe and worthwhile and not feel ashamed and all that stuff because it really is different for every person. I think there's some things that are the same for everyone, but I actually think that's really the most important thing for me to understand has been that motivation is really more than external circumstances and behavior.

John Lin [34:24]

Thanks for bringing that nuance, Shannon. I really like that. And especially drawing from the Enneagram and those core motivations and how you use the language of shadow side, right? So all of us have a shadow side or multiple shadow sides and we have to manage them. But the reality is each of those shadow sides gets triggered or activated or drawn out by different situations and things. And so...

Becoming healthy requires I guess that's the reality. There's not like a one-size-fits-all to be a healthy leader There's not just a course you can take and then everyone goes through that and they're a healthy leader, you know popping out a healthy leader like it takes a lot of work a lot of nuance and self-understanding But I guess it does raise the question of like Why don't more people do that? That's an assumption. I don't where people do that or or why would people do that?

And that goes back to some of the systemic things where I think because results and outcomes and impact are more external, those can be measured, right? And there's that saying like what you measure is what you value, right? And so if the system is measuring those external things, then by sheer structure, leaders within those systems are rewarded to focus on the competence pieces, right they're rewarded by focusing on the external things, not doing that internal work that no one may see or the results of that may not be immediately apparent until things are too late, right? And so, yeah, I think that is a challenge, right? Like if you're a business leader and then even with like Brene Brown and I mean, there's been like a, I think a big shifting tide into saying that, empathy, vulnerability, even in those contexts is very important that those soft skills are very important to bringing the best out of people. And at the same time, they're still like, I'm beholden to my shareholders, I gotta hit the bottom line things. And then so it's like, well, what is gonna be at the end of the day rewarded? And what is my compensation package gonna be based on? Is it gonna be on my health as a leader? Or, you know, did I deliver X, Y and Z results, you know? And so, yeah.

Anyways, those are some thoughts that came to my head, but yeah, anything you guys want to say to that?

Shannon Pugh [36:50]

Well, it's not just in the corporate world, in a church, we're living on donations and when someone gets mad and leaves, the reality is they take their money with them. And so that requires an extra level of just that starting with conviction of, know, I'm gonna trust God to provide for our church because I know that I'm doing this thing that's making people mad, making them leave, might impact our annual giving. It's a conviction. I believe it's rooted in what God wants me to do, and so I'm gonna stick with it and trust him to provide.

John Lin [37:39]

I wanted to ask y'all, what things have you found just at a really practical level that help cultivate healthy leadership, that cultivate the health, the self-awareness, the boundaries, the humility, the prayer life that we've talked about? Whether that's personal that you've practiced or that you've seen in others, other specific practices, mental mindset shifts, leadership hacks, anything y'all want to share that would help those who are tuning into this. And like, yeah, I do want to be a healthy leader.

Shannon Pugh [38:16]

Dude, therapy. And I am not, that is not a plug. That is not a, oh, you know, where I'm on a therapist podcast. No, seriously, therapy. Specifically with a Christian therapist. You know, because it does have to be balanced. But I led as a teacher and as a, you know, in volunteer leadership positions for eight years before I walked into a therapist's office for the first time and it was a night and day difference. So I walked into that office the first time and I said, I can't handle life. I was on, I had been in ministry for a year and I was gonna burn out. Like I was flaming out.

And I said, I can't handle anything and da da da da da. And she was like, I think you might consider meds. And I was like, what? And yes, that was actually needed. But also she was like, I want you to go through the gospels and I want you to make note of every time Jesus says no. That was the first, she didn't give me the book Boundaries to read. She didn't give me, she said, go look at Jesus and all the times that he said no.

And so having a therapist to say, here's this psychological stuff and like even the psychiatric stuff that's going on and she's been with me through a whole journey of emotional and psychological healing, but also to continually bring scripture into it and pointing to.

Jesus as the ultimate emotionally healthy leader. Like that's like it really is such a that sounds like such a cheesy thing to say but he modeled leadership like he modeled all the things that we're talking about has been so valuable and then I will say I've done EMDR and that has really helped me too because it helps you get those core motivations that you're not even aware of that are leading you to act and react the ways that You are, and so all of that has been so helpful to me. So obviously, yes, Bible study and prayer and all those things, but seriously, honestly, therapy.

Paul McMullen, LPC [40:43]

Well, I like that Shannon said that as a therapist, but.

Shannon Pugh [40:44]

Yeah. It is not a plug.

Paul McMullen, LPC [40:50]

How can no I mean and but it gets back to one of the first things you said which is self-awareness Just this idea of knowing what's going on inside me and I think that when you're in a culture where So think one of the things we're talking about is this happens on an individual level and it's specific to each person But then it also happens on a cultural or a community level And I do think there are places where there's got to be somebody that stands up and takes the lead and says, this is important. And you may not be in the decision-making role to make it important for everybody else. Now, it's great when there's a senior pastor like at Shannon's Church where it's like, we're going to value this and I'm going to help us implement this for the whole leadership structure.

That's key. But let's say you're not in that role. You're a leader, but you're not able to make that call for the whole community. I think it's it's about taking a step and just saying this is important and I'm willing to be the weird one and step out and make this change. And I think like like Shannon's suggestion, I'm going to go therapy. But I also think something like I'm going to practice a Sabbath which comes up in Scazzaro's book, Emotionally Healthy Leaders.

I'm going to devote a whole day to marking it off and doing nothing and resting and being able to... This is not my Sunday where I actually do my work. It's not even Saturday when I do all the work for my family and home that's not being done on the other days. And let me tell you, this is really hard practice because I have tried and failed a lot in our family for practicing a good Sabbath. But practicing that and what it does is it's saying things can go on without me. I can rest and pause myself as a leader and you know what? The church, the world, God keeps holding things together and it just kind of reorients you. So I think that's one really healthy option if you're thinking about how to take a step that way.

And we've, we're familiar, the three of us are familiar with the book Emotionally Healthy Leaders, but some descriptions of how to do that and how to try some of those practices can be found there.

John Lin [43:26]

Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. Having that safe space to process with someone who has skills to help you dig deeper and grow in that awareness like you were saying, Shan. I that has been so fundamentally transformative for me as well. yeah, EMDR, so helpful too. Paul, you were talking about the practice of rest and Sabbath, of being able to step away.

There is a reason that commandment, Jesus says, that's actually a gift for humanity, right? Sabbath is a gift for man. I was also thinking about the practice of authentic community. Paul, I know I've heard you mention this many times, the dangers of isolating and the counter to that is being in authentic community where you can truly be vulnerable with your stuff. And that might be a therapist. think that's, some of us, there might be situations where we don't have that immediately at our disposal in our natural relationships or social relationships. And a therapist, good quality safe therapist can provide that space. But there is something to be said about being in relationship with people that can hold space for us think even in our last episode when we were talking about trauma, the importance of having an empathetic witness. Someone who can just be with us in our suffering, in our shame, in our confusion, and how, my gosh, that does wonders to cast light into our shadow sides, right? Because it's in the isolation that our shadow side gets really tormented and then the things fester we, yeah, what is bringing into light mean? It means actually being community with trusted people. But we know that takes, you know, there's a reason that loneliness is the epidemic. So it's not just like you go find a friend tomorrow that can do that, right? It has to be cultivated. But if we could urge listeners like, okay, maybe you're not in a crisis right now. But if you wait till that crisis happens two years and you have not been cultivating the community that you need to be able to go to when that happens, or the practices of Sabbath, or the therapeutic relationship where you have those tools and your strength, then things can become a lot more compounded.

Paul McMullen, LPC [46:03]

Yeah, I wanted to add that or just reflect on what you're saying there, John, by quoting something that I heard John Townsend say in one of his leadership conferences. this is John Townsend started, you know, his own institute and has been in leadership for a long time and co-wrote the book Boundaries. And he has in this room full of leaders, he says, you the one thing I want to convince you of is leaders need to need.

And he had to repeat it because we're like leaders need to need. Okay. And again, it gets back to this idea that a leader feels like they're the one that has the answers and it's a very healthy practice for leaders to say, Oh, I need, I am in need. I have my own needs and I need to be able to find people that help me meet those needs. And so he said the lead leaders need to need and

Shannon Pugh [46:32]

Hmph. You didn't need it. That's good.

Paul McMullen, LPC [46:59]

His book, People Fuel, goes through different relational needs and nutrients. And I've probably talked about them on every episode I've done with you, John, but it's just so helpful. And leaders need to practice that and model that and recognize that for them to lead well and be healthy, that can't be done in isolation. So just along with what you were saying.

John Lin [47:18]

thanks for saying that. Yeah, it's like leaders, we think, they need me to lead well. And then that leaves very little room for me to be aware of, my gosh, well, I have needs too. And yeah.

Well, I see that we're almost out of time, to wrap up this conversation, is there anything else that you would like to say to leaders to take away from this conversation? If there was one thing that people could take away from this conversation, what would that be?

Shannon Pugh [48:07]

Yeah, I mean it's what we've already said. I just wrote down, you gotta do the internal work. And here's the thing, you can lead for a while without doing the internal work, but at some point it's gonna catch up with you. And it's gonna be when there's something that happened, like at some point something's gonna happen. This person's gonna come into your, life or this situation is gonna start happening and it's, you're gonna either burn out or have a moral failure, have a complete nervous breakdown, which happens. You have to be doing the internal work. I love what you said about, do it now. Don't wait because when that thing happens, then it's gonna become really clear that you didn't know that there was all this stuff going on under the surface and that there were all these things that you needed that you didn't know that you needed and so you weren't getting those needs met or maybe you were but in an unhealthy way, right? If I have a need to be valued and loved and I'm not aware of that and pursuing healthy ways then I'm gonna be leading out of that need to be valued and loved and that's not gonna be healthy instead of starting with my convictions even when people are unhappy with that. that's all I would say is just, yeah, do the work before you need it. Because it'll catch up with you at some point, it really will.

Paul McMullen, LPC [49:48]

That was really well said, Shannon. I think that whatever each of us is doing at the time, we tend to think it's a really important thing. know, like the ministry that I'm in at this time or the company I'm in at this time is really, really important. And we have, and so our competence in that area, thus needs to be, we need to be excelling in it.

And I think being able to step back and say, especially from a theological lens, like, who I'm becoming is really what God is concerned about. In God's kingdom mentality and economy, to use that word, what matters the most is who we're becoming sharing that with others. so again, going back to there's a lot of pressure, especially in our culture, to perform and have great numbers, God's got the plan and is going to empower the mission. And so from an individual level, if we can say, I'm not the most important thing happening right here, but what's happening within me, what God is doing within me in my heart, becoming an obedient, open, humble heart that's connected with others that's important. That's important to God. And I know we were joking about this Dallas Willard quote and I looked it up right before we started but Dallas Willard says, the main thing God gets out of your life is not the achievements you accomplish, it's the person you become. And I've always just thought that was so profound because it does, it helps redirect us away from the short-term achievement oriented focus and say, who I am is really what's gonna bear a lot of fruit. that's, when Jesus gives the parable of the seeds being scattered, it's the good soil that bears all the fruit. And so what is good soil? It's our heart, it's like our receptivity, what he wants to do in our lives. It's not that we're like, the best at growing other seeds. It's more about the quality that we are. So I just think being able to step back and be okay with, God's doing something within me and will bear the fruit that needs.

Shannon Pugh [52:22]

It's really good.

Paul McMullen, LPC [52:31]

that needs to happen for his kingdom and he's doing that. I'm kind of the recipient of his feeding and watering and growing. I just think that's a really good heart posture.

John Lin [52:44]

Hmm, yeah. Hmm, great stuff. Thank you for sharing. Shannon, thank you so much for sharing these thoughts, perspectives, stories, experiences. Really appreciate you. Paul, always appreciate what you bring and the perspective you bring to these conversations. So those of you tuning in, I do hope this conversation has at least caused you to think maybe a little differently about your own leadership.

Shannon Pugh [52:44]

I love that. It's really good.

John Lin [53:14]

your own influence. And we want to support you in your ongoing journey to be a healthy leader. So thank you so much for tuning in. And as always, may God bless you and strengthen you as you do the work. Thanks.