Be Anxious for Nothing…But How?

The Work Within Podcast

This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity and readability

John Lin

Paul makes it so clear. He says, "Be anxious for nothing, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus." That's from Philippians chapter 4, verses 6 through 7. And it's really hard to do. If you've ever felt anxious, you know that — it's not something you can just turn off like a light switch. So today we're wrestling with a question: what does it look like to manage our anxiety, and to lean into that image of peace and calm that transcends all understanding? Whether you battle acute anxiety every day or live with a perpetual state of background anxiety, we hope this conversation helps all of us experience more calm and peace. I'm your host, John Lin, and today I'm joined by my friends and licensed professional counselors, Dieula Previlon and Paul McMullen. How are you both doing today?

Dieula Previlon, LPC-S

Doing good, doing good.

Paul McMullen, LPC

Hey John, hey Dieula. It's good to be with you guys.

John Lin

It's been a minute, and it's really good to see you. I'm excited about our conversation today. I've actually been anxious about it — you see what I did there?

Paul McMullen, LPC

Well played.

John Lin

Before we dive in, two quick invitations. If this show has helped you at all, we'd love it if you could leave us a rating or review — that helps the show get in front of more people. And if you're looking for a clinically trained Christian therapist, we'd love to be a resource for you. All right, so Dieula, Paul — what's making you anxious these days?

Dieula Previlon, LPC-S

The bulk of my anxiety is really work-related. I often feel afraid that it's all going to fall apart. Whenever I talk to Ly, that's my confession to him: "Ly, at any given moment, I feel like it's just going to fall apart and combust." That's the core of my anxiety — that it's all going to fall apart at any moment.

John Lin

That sounds weighty. Really weighty.

Paul McMullen, LPC

I don't know if it's a profession thing, but in the private-practice counseling world, I can relate to that, Dieula. Is this going to work out next week? Next month? There's an inconsistency built in. Finances are part of that. We're changing our health care because my wife's job is changing, and that's full of anxiety. And a lot of it is relational — am I maintaining friendships? Do I have enough friendships for this season of life? Those questions run in the back of my mind.

John Lin

There's a wide breadth of things that can make us anxious — and we haven't even mentioned politics or what's happening in the world. This is just the smaller sphere. I was talking with my kids this morning while dropping them off at camp, and I realized that every morning I wake up anxious about my dog — whether he's going to make a mess in his crate that I'll have to clean up. That single moment can set whether I have a good day or a bad day. I also carry a lot of anxiety about my parents, who are advancing in age. Those of us with aging parents worry about their health and what the future looks like. So — lots of things to be anxious about.

Dieula Previlon, LPC-S

We ran the whole spectrum there, from the depth of everything falling apart to waking up to a giant mess in the crate.

John Lin

That brings up a point: anxiety is all around us. It's common and familiar. I almost take it for granted, because I've always lived with a lot of anxiety, so it feels like a normal part of my life. And it is normal. But I don't want to minimize its impact. Can we talk about that? What is the impact of anxiety — is it really that serious?

Paul McMullen, LPC

It's a great question. There's a cultural level of anxiety — we've talked about it in a few episodes, and there are books like The Anxious Generation that point to what's happening in our culture. But on a personal level, a little or a lot of anxiety speeds us up. And the more sped up I am, the less present I am with the people around me — and with God. I can go through a whole day worrying about a lot of things and never once remember that God is with me. Then there's the unconscious need to regulate. I heard a great phrase — "pseudo-regulators." A pseudo-regulator is something that chemically changes how I feel so I feel better, but the underlying issue isn't different. If I use nicotine or alcohol to calm down, that's a pseudo-regulator. A lot of times we do these things reactively, without thinking about why. We grab the phone the moment we feel uncomfortable. Why am I scrolling again? Because I'm regulating my anxiety — and I'm not even aware I'm doing it.

Dieula Previlon, LPC-S

I appreciate you putting a name to it, because we all do it. On one hand, some measure of anxiety causes us to perform better — to dot our i's and cross our t's, to be more on top of our game. We can't fully get rid of anxiety; it's part of living in a world where things keep happening. Some of it helps. But the long-term impact of anxiety that goes unmanaged and unchecked isn't just emotional and mental — it's physical: IBS, heart palpitations, even panic attacks. And there's the impact of not being present, of not being your full self. You're always hyper-aware, hyper-vigilant, always planning your exit strategy, always processing what you'd do if the worst happened. It takes life from you. It causes you to lose hours, days, and moments — to lose joy and fun with the people you love. There's great impact when it's unmanaged, unchecked, and unaware.

John Lin

Thanks for highlighting that. It raises a question about how anxiety affects relationships and systems. A lot of people think of anxiety in terms of their own peace — and it does affect that, and our physical health — but it also affects the people we're connected to, and their anxiety affects us. I've heard leaders and systems theorists talk about how, when there's a lot of anxiety in a system, people tend to overfunction or underfunction. I see both in me. When I feel anxious, I may try to control everything and become a control freak — and if you're on my team or in my family, that feels awful. Other times I completely underfunction: I'm there but not engaged, and other people have to pick up the pieces. How do you see anxiety affecting systems — families, churches, organizations?

Dieula Previlon, LPC-S

You definitely don't want to work under an anxious leader. An anxious leader makes life unbearable, because everyone's on edge and it's never enough. You walk around feeling like you're never enough, because they're trying to manage their anxiety with control. There's nothing wrong with systems, programs, policies, and rules — that's completely different from the anxious leader who micromanages so everything is done exactly the way they see it. There's no freedom, no flexibility to be innovative or imaginative.

John Lin

It squashes creativity.

Dieula Previlon, LPC-S

It does. Your team becomes a carbon copy of the leader, and that doesn't make for a diverse team. Part of growing a team is everyone bringing their ingenuity and their best selves. Then there's the opposite side — the leader who's so anxious it paralyzes them. They feel they've lost complete control; they go mute. Everyone's looking for them to lead, and they can't be found, because they're curled up in a corner. Two completely different leaders, and both have the same issue: unmanaged anxiety. I've seen both.

Paul McMullen, LPC

What we're not saying is that a family, workplace, or church should have no expectations, boundaries, or challenges. Challenge can be good. If I'm getting ready for a podcast or a sport, my senses heighten, I've got some adrenaline, and I perform a little better. We want to be able to have hard conversations in a culture. So the opposite of anxiety isn't permissiveness where everyone's happy and no one steps on any toes. It's being calm and confident because we trust one another. We can wrestle with things because there's a degree of safety. More anxiety in a system usually means more people hiding rather than being creative. When you're in the protective part of your brain, that's not the part that feels creative and connected. But that's different from the ultra-permissive, anything-goes culture.

John Lin

A lot of us want to manage our anxiety well. We read a verse like Philippians 4 — don't be anxious about anything, but pray and be thankful, and this peace will guard you — but in reality that feels so hard to do. What are some of the things we try that actually aren't helpful?

Paul McMullen, LPC

Ignore it. Just keep going — it'll fix itself.

John Lin

Say more about that. Is that generally how we respond — minimize it, endure it, work through it? What are the repercussions?

Paul McMullen, LPC

I think we minimize it and learn to live with it. It becomes so normal we don't realize the impact on ourselves. The cost is a fast-paced, hurried life versus a life that feels more peaceful, connected, and at rest. That's the biggest cost — we get used to running. I'm running from something, not even sure what, not sure what would happen if it caught me, but I'm running, and that keeps me on my toes rather than at peace.

John Lin

So it's the deadline that's coming, and I feel anxious, so I work harder to get it done, thinking that finishing it will reduce all the anxiety. There may be some relief once the project's done, but there's often an underlying driver — a belief or narrative that it has to be a certain way, or that my identity or security depends on achieving it. That's a deeper narrative that needs processing. Sometimes the way we deal with anxiety — working harder and faster — only contributes to it.

Dieula Previlon, LPC-S

I'll add this: there are some real things happening that make it reasonable to be anxious. Some communities live in states of anxiety — immigrant communities, refugee communities, under-resourced communities. There are real things that make life harder and more anxiety-producing, because these communities are constantly figuring out how to feed their families, get health insurance, and keep their children safe. Those are real sources of anxiety, and ignoring it doesn't make it better. Many of these communities don't have real access to one-on-one therapy or even small groups to talk about anxiety. The resources are less available, which perpetuates it and makes it worse. That, honestly, is a big part of why we do this podcast and why the organization exists — to make some of these resources available to those who don't have them.

Paul McMullen, LPC

With that, just having someone read you a verse about what you should be doing, or say "just stop it" or "God's got you" — which is true — can end up ignoring the person. There's a verse in James: it's great to tell someone "be blessed, be well fed," but it's another thing to actually help them receive those things. Don't just use words; it demands action. The same is true with anxiety. It's one thing to talk about faith versus anxiety, and another to say, "This is the context creating anxiety — cultural, family, community — and we want to equip you and help you practice these things." There is hope, but there are also good reasons people feel anxious. Traumatic events create anxiety and watchfulness — especially when the people who should have taken care of you are the ones who harmed you. That creates distrust of relationships. When you're young and don't have the power to take care of yourself, of course you feel anxious in relationships. Or the person who gives themselves to someone, loves them, and is betrayed — of course they find it hard to open up again. Of course your system is on high alert. That's why we need healing — grief, assurance, repair. The anxiety is very understandable, and easy answers or shame are not the right approach.

John Lin

Thanks for naming that — the ways anxiety affects different individuals and communities, and that we never want to bring a voice of shame or judgment. These are facts of our lives, and we want to ask, compassionately, what it looks like to choose a different way or find healthier tools. What might some of those shifts be?

Dieula Previlon, LPC-S

We've alluded to some. One of the first steps is becoming aware: the reason I do a certain thing is because I'm anxious. The reason I'm controlling, the reason I yell, is that I'm trying to manage my anxiety — and I wouldn't like to be that way. There's something about being aware, about naming it, about seeing the actions you're doing. And if you're surrounded by "yes" people who can't tell you, "Hey, do you know you do this when that happens?" — I'm so sorry, because you need those people. Sometimes we can't illuminate our own faults. We need friends, family, colleagues, and employees — which is why it's important to create space for people to give you feedback and to be able to receive it. Awareness is key. Being able to agree with what people see in you is key. And then move into different actions. Every morning I wake up with the anxiety that everything's going to fall apart. I almost never wake up saying, "Lord, you are so good." So what do I do? I get up, put on my tennis shoes, go outside, walk three or four miles, and lift weights. Then I come back home and think, the world is okay again. I have ideas for how to make it a better place, how to co-labor with God. I'm talking to God nicely again. I'm talking to my people nicely again.

John Lin

God's like, "Don't pray right now, Dieula — go run first, then come back to me."

Dieula Previlon, LPC-S

Exactly. People think of quiet time first, but I can't have quiet time first, because my head is on fire and my quiet time becomes loud time. I need something to create quietness so I can talk to God and to people better. For me it's always something physical that gets me back into my right mind.

John Lin

That's awesome, Dieula — because knowing you, I'd never have pinned you as someone who's anxious. You seem cool as a cucumber. So thank you for acknowledging that you wrestle with it and have found ways to manage it.

Paul McMullen, LPC

She always works out before she talks to you, John.

Dieula Previlon, LPC-S

Exactly. Before eleven o'clock I can't have any meetings, because I'm working myself out. And I'm a child of immigrants. I've talked about generational trauma — I'm a 1.5-generation immigrant, so I've had anxiety inside me since I was born in Haiti. In adulthood I've learned that some of my anxiety comes from somewhere: living under constant fear as an immigrant, living in constant need, and shame. In this season of my adult life, I'm learning to manage it better — learning not to react based on what my anxiety tells me. It can be paralyzing; when I feel like it's all going to fall apart, the temptation is, "Why bother?" But I have work to do. God has given me work to do, and I need courage, clarity, and quietness to get it done. So I show up in confidence, because I've already walked four miles, and now I'm good.

Paul McMullen, LPC

I love that — don't neglect the body and what it needs. There's something about being outside, breathing, walking on the grass, working in the garden, stretching, playing a sport. It releases some of that energy, and the body-oriented stuff is really effective. I wanted to go back to Philippians 4, though. We get this verse about not being anxious, and it's the high-pressure verse. But the theological training in me has to go back to the context. Before that verse, it talks about rejoicing — "rejoice always." What is it like to praise God no matter what's going on? I know people who have a worshipful heart regardless of their circumstances, and it does something to them. Then the next verse says, "The Lord is near." What if, in your anxiety, you invite the Lord into that space — maybe after four miles of walking: "Lord, this is the stuff I wake up with. Come and be present. Where are you in this mess?" And then, after the anxious verse, comes the verse about whatever is good and true and noble — think on those things. That's your mental focus. You could be oriented to everything that could go wrong, but to what degree can you change your orientation and say, "This is where I'm going to put my mind"? As we've said in other episodes, it's not always as easy as "just put your mind on that." Sometimes I need Dieula and John to say, "We're with you in the anxiety, but we also want you to know that's not all that's true about your situation. Your world isn't going to completely combust. It's going to be okay, and we're going to be with you no matter what." Something in that sharing helps orient me toward what's good and true. So Philippians 4 has the pressure verse about not being anxious, but it also has a lot more — relational components, thankfulness, praise, and remembering the Lord's presence. If we practice all those things together, it helps that "don't be anxious" verse make sense in context.

John Lin

That's so good, Paul. Have you preached a sermon on this? It's really rich. I'm sitting with your comment about the Lord being near and that relational peace. Often — for me, and I think for a lot of Christians — we feel we have to figure our struggles out on our own first and then show up to God, rather than inviting God right there in the moment into the messiness, into the thing we feel ashamed about. That's the step of learning to walk this life, in all its messiness, with God. It's such a hopeful message — even for people in a season where their friendships aren't what they want them to be and they don't have that support yet, there's still this gracious reality that God's presence can be with us in the midst of the struggle. I'm also reflecting that we're not going to eliminate all anxiety. Like you said, Dieula, you still wake up anxious every morning, but now you have a way to manage it. Maybe it parallels relationships: you're going to say things that hurt someone, but the key is learning to repair the relationship earlier and more often. That's the growth — not the absence of conflict. Maybe the same is true with anxiety. It's always going to be there, but if each of us can grow in our capacity to recalibrate more quickly, earlier, and more often, that's the measure of progress — of increasing maturity. That's something I've been trying to learn: when I feel stressed and overwhelmed, how do I recenter and recalibrate?

Dieula Previlon, LPC-S

It's important for everyone to identify what works for them and have a toolkit they can reach into for the thing they need — positive, affirming verses, calling a friend, going for a walk. Have the tools you know consistently work to help manage your anxiety.

John Lin

I think we're nearing the end of our conversation. As we wrap up, is there anything else you'd like to highlight for those tuning in?

Paul McMullen, LPC

I want to reaffirm that if anxiety is a big part of your life, we understand. We're not hiding the fact that we've learned a lot about mental health and try to equip others — and it's still there for us too. It's not about feeling shame that you should be in a better place. It's about growing to where we can experience anxiety without living in that reactionary world, getting washed back and forth by the next thing that makes us anxious. That's not abundant life, and none of us want to feel that way. Recognize that your anxiety is, in some way, trying to protect you — and then invite other practices and voices into your life so you can create more space to respond differently. That's the slower, kinder approach we talk about a lot on this podcast. And know that God loves you where you are and wants to walk with you and make it feel lighter. That's the promise of Jesus — walk with me, and it's going to feel lighter. I can't make that happen for you, and neither can Dieula or John, but it's a promise. We can stand on it, but we've got to pursue it and open ourselves up to it.

Dieula Previlon, LPC-S

I don't think I can add anything to close — everything Paul shared is right on the money. So: you're not alone. If you're listening to or watching this, you are not alone in dealing with anxiety. Given the things you've been carrying, of course you'd have anxiety — but you're not meant to deal with it on your own, and you're not doomed to anxiety. It doesn't have to become debilitating and take life from you. You can have abundant life even when there's anxiety.

John Lin

That's great. So let me just say: be anxious for nothing. But when you are anxious — and you will be — be compassionate and kind to yourself. Let's try to be more aware, and over time develop a toolkit that helps us manage anxiety a little bit better. That one incremental degree of change can have a big impact over time if we stay at it. Paul, Dieula, thank you so much for sharing today. And thank you for tuning in. I also want to mention that we've created new episode pages for each episode, with articles and other resources — look for those in the show notes. In conclusion, may God bless you and strengthen you as you do the work. Thanks for tuning in today.