The Work Within Podcast

This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity and readability

John Lin: Being perfect is overrated. Consider this quote: "Perfectionism is not the same thing as striving to be your best. Perfectionism is the belief that if we live perfect, look perfect, and act perfect, we can minimize or avoid the pain of blame, judgment, and shame." That's a quote worth knowing from Brené Brown, author of The Gifts of Imperfection, and it's helped me to see myself with greater clarity and compassion.

As a recovering perfectionist myself, I now understand how perfectionism, while it can enable someone to achieve good things, for me, it was a way of dealing with and avoiding the pain of self-doubt and worthlessness that often was lurking in the corners of my heart. As I've learned to press into perfectionism and release that, it's been very liberating.

So if you're in relationship to a perfectionist, if you've given birth to one — and I think firstborn siblings tend to be perfectionistic — or if you are a perfectionist, I hope you'll give this episode a listen. We're going to unpack what it is and why it can be such a heavy burden to carry. And more importantly, what does it look like to join a growing community of recovering perfectionists who are living with greater freedom, courage, and connection?

Welcome to The Work Within. My name is John Lin, I'm your host, and today I'm joined by Laura Harrison and Paul McMullen — both licensed therapists, great people who have done battle with their own inner perfectionist, I presume, and have helped lots of other people to do the same. So Paul, Laura, it's great to see y'all. How are you guys doing today?

Laura Harrison: Doing good.

Paul McMullen: Hey John. Hey Laura.

John Lin: Before we jump into our conversation, two quick invitations. First, would you show us some love by leaving us a rating or review or subscribing to this podcast? And second, if you would like help finding a faith-based therapist, we would love to serve you. Just reach out and we can help.

Alright, let's get into this conversation. So Laura, Paul — what does perfectionism look like in your life, or what has it looked like?

Laura Harrison: It's funny because I call myself a procrastinating perfectionist. I tend to put things off because I don't think I can do it perfectly. My husband will call me a 99 percenter — I will finish a project all the way up to the last 99%. I will paint a room and get it all completely done, but I won't put the trim back on. Because then I have to call it finished. And what if it's not complete quite right? There are things that I do that battle against that, but my perfectionism tends to look like not quite finishing things most of the time. Because it's finished and it's supposed to be perfect, but if it's not quite finished, then you're still not there yet. Maybe.

John Lin: That's very logical. How about you, Paul?

Paul McMullen: Mine is probably more connected to the jobs and careers that I've had. Currently as a counselor, an LPC, and previously as a pastor at a church — the perfectionist takes more of a form of looking like I have it together. Sometimes it's just because of the title that I carry, and it's almost like I feel like to have the title I need to portray that I'm living up to the title. People look at pastors as people that should have high moral standards, and they should, and counselors as well. So I think what happens is I know my own heart and mind, and I know the good, bad, and ugly, and then I feel the tension of, my people look at me in this particular role, and so I feel the inner tension of that. It might push me to hide or act like things are better than they actually are sometimes, instead of being vulnerable. So that's a different type of perfectionism — almost like role-based perfectionism.

John Lin: I resonate a lot with that, Paul. I've also been in a lot of ministry settings as a pastor in different roles, and that idea of portraying a perfect image definitely hits home. When you were talking about that, I was thinking how at some point I also learned that vulnerability was a virtue and being authentic was a virtue. And so in my perfectionism, I would learn how to share just enough vulnerability where it was seen as a value — like, "wow, John's being so authentic or vulnerable" — but not enough to really be vulnerable or authentic. It was more about managing that image of perfectionism, even in my character, rather than truly being authentic.

Laura Harrison: When you guys are talking about that, it occurred to me — there are almost two forms of perfectionism: the way that you want people to see you, and the way you see yourself. I'm pretty good at saying, "oh yeah, I mess that up all the time." Not that I don't ever worry about what people think about me, but I tend to be more hard on myself. We haven't talked about Enneagram much on this podcast, but a lot of this is about my Enneagram number — I'm more self-critical than I am critical of others. And I don't want people to be self-critical, so I would fall on my sword and say, "well, yeah, I do that too" to help them feel more heard and seen. Whereas in my mind, I may be more self-critical of myself. My perfectionism is more internal rather than external, worried about what other people might think of me. Does that make sense?

John Lin: Yeah. They can sap us of a lot of energy. I'm mindful of the fact that for me, a lot of times perfectionism has kept me from taking risks, because the fear of failure feels so overwhelming. If I don't do it just right, that feels almost existential — not just like, "I tried and I messed up." It's this weight of, I'm tied to that, and so what does that mean about who I am and my worth?

So earlier I made the phrase, "being perfect is overrated." I want to unpack that a little bit, because there is a difference — or is there a difference? Maybe that's what we can unpack — between striving for excellence, striving to be your best, and perfectionism. What's the difference? How are they the same? How are they different?

Paul McMullen: The word striving actually triggers something in me. The idea of striving feels like it gets in the same ballpark as perfectionism. And that may just be me, not for everybody. But I'll say that — I had a goal in my run this morning to get under a particular time, and I was striving for that. So I do strive for things, and I don't think it's being perfect. It's just a marker of a goal that I want to hit. So my issue with the word isn't congruent with being perfect.

When I think about that question outside of the word striving, I think about the people I've met in the recovery world, in the recovery programs that I've participated in. I find that the people that have been doing recovery work for a long time to be the healthiest people I know. And yet the fact that I'm meeting them in recovery implies that none of us are perfect, or we wouldn't be in a recovery program. But to me, the willingness to stick with that and to do the hard work and to believe that you're either able or valuable enough to put in that work and create a better version of yourself — to me that implies a humble, growth-oriented, "I'm gonna stick to it" that I've seen in those people. But the fact that you're doing it in a recovery setting kind of cancels out the perfectionist part, because you wouldn't be there otherwise.

Laura Harrison: I think it's how you internalize that phrase, "striving to be your best." I work with a lot of teenagers, and oftentimes their parents will say, "hey, just do your best at school." And you'll see that taken in very different ways. You'll see a teenager interpret it as, the expectation is to be the best, not to do the best. The internalization of "what does my best look like, and when do I know that I've reached my best?" can be different for every person. It feels like it's supposed to be a releasing thing — "just do your best, as long as we know you're doing your best, we'll be okay with that." But that internalization can be taken very literally or very loosely. So I think they can be blended, and it depends on how your personality approaches it. It's much more of an internal lens.

John Lin: And I think it also gets at what that "best" means to a person — that interpretation or value that's assigned to achieving one's best. Is it because I feel joy as I live into my strengths? Or is it because I'm trying to — I think Brené Brown also uses this phrase — hustling for attention or affirmation in what I achieve. That feels a little bit different. I think that touches on that whole idea of perfectionism as avoiding the pain of shame or condemnation or judgment.

To build on that, she writes that "perfectionism is not self-improvement. Perfectionism is at its core about trying to earn approval and acceptance." So let's sit with that. If we were to lift up the hood of the car of someone who is really working hard, striving really hard — which in itself is not a bad thing — but when we attach perfectionism to them, what are some of the common themes underneath that are driving those behaviors? What's driving that, that is different than maybe just doing it because you enjoy it or care about it?

Paul McMullen: Laura, would you be willing to tell us your Enneagram number?

Laura Harrison: I'm a one.

Paul McMullen: Okay. Because your question, John, made me think of the difference of motivation. Is it intrinsic to myself? And part of what I want to answer is this idea of the inner critic, which we've had an episode on.

John Lin: Which is actually our most-listened-to episode of all the episodes we've done. Somehow that resonates with a lot of people.

Paul McMullen: We all have some form of inner critic. The Enneagram Three — not that this is an Enneagram episode — they're more striving for the approval of others, to look good in other people's sight. So there might be different motivations for perfection in somebody's heart.

Laura Harrison: I think that's important context, because it is a lot about motivation. What are your core values, and what is important to you? For me, one of the things is, doing my best and doing it right is extremely important to me. So when I can't do it right, I'd be more likely to abandon it than to finish it, because it can't be right and I've got to quit. But if someone else went in and finished it, I'd be like, "great, I'm so glad it's done." There's a little tipping point. When you look at what is the core motivation, a lot of times you'll see people are looking for acceptance. They're looking for someone — either themselves, self-acceptance, or external acceptance — for someone to say, "I see you're doing it right." That can be really hard when you don't feel like you can meet up to that standard.

Paul McMullen: The language you just used, Laura, reminds me of some of the frameworks I learned when I was at the Townsend Institute. It equates being good with one's performance, or doing things perfectly. "I am only good if I do it at this level." The shift that they say looks like growth in somebody's life is moving from the "good self" — this is what it takes for me to be good — to the "loved self," which means this is what it looks like in my relationships, that I'm loved. The most important thing about me is that I'm loved. We could dig into that more, but I think that's what it made me think of.

John Lin: That starting place is so different. Full disclosure, I've taken the Enneagram test a few times, and my highest scores are three and one. So one — being really driven by perfectionism, doing things right. And three — trying to be perfect for the sake of what other people might think of me. So it's like a double dose.

I've had to work really hard to find what is the center, the grounding place that allows me to release some of that and show up from a place of being loved — I am enough as I am before I enter into this task or work. Laura, that's funny, because my bias would be: if I start something, I will not stop it. I will keep going hell or high water until it's done just right, and sacrifice a lot of other things that are important to me — family, time, self-care — because I'm just like, "I need to get this done and get it done just right."

Laura Harrison: So you can see how that shows up differently even with the same motivation. I think it's interesting. Although I would urge you to dig deeper on your Enneagram, because you can't be a three and a one. One or the other. We need to do an Enneagram podcast.

Paul McMullen: Go back and listen to that inner critic episode, because we talked about exploring where that critic comes from, what it sounds like in your life, and both the idea that it can be problematic and that it could be trying to help you do something, just in a very domineering sort of way. Learning to integrate your inner critic, rather than it being the dominant force that drives you, is a core skill that all of us, to some degree, whatever Enneagram number we are, have to figure out how to do.

Laura Harrison: Another thing that is really important to notice — I see this a lot in individuals who came from a very disorganized household, and especially if they had a very fractured relationship with one parent, especially if that parent was an addict. You'll oftentimes see that child swing into adulthood either far toward perfectionism or far toward dysregulation.

When they swing far toward perfectionism, it's normally about proving that parent wrong — looking at that parent who had the addiction, or rejected them, or didn't show up for them the way they wanted, and saying, "okay, I'm not going to be like them. I'm going to prove them wrong. I'm going to prove that I can do better." It becomes a driving force in their life to prove the parent wrong.

If that's you, notice that's a normal pattern that happens with people who have a dysregulated parent. You created that as a safety net for yourself. I've probably said it before and I'll probably say it again: all behavior is self-protective. You are looking for a way to protect yourself from becoming like that parent. Perfectionism is a way you can do that. Notice what happened in your life that caused you to see that as the way to fix it. If I am perfect, I'm not going to be that.

John Lin: That just underscores the fact that there's a story attached to the perfectionism. I'm so glad you said that, Laura — this notion that it's a coping mechanism, a way to address pain and to find healing in the midst of some really hard things, whether that was rejection or living with a parent who was an addict.

It's not to say that the perfectionism is fine and dandy, but to have, like we've said so many times, compassion on yourself. No wonder you use perfectionism as a way to feel safe in the world. I used perfectionism as a way to feel safe in the world. The tendency to be like, "dang it, I hate my perfectionist, I just wish I didn't have that, my perfectionist sucks" — to condemn ourselves only makes it worse.

Laura Harrison: You're trying to be the perfect non-perfectionist.

John Lin: Exactly. What an oxymoron. Well, I thought it'd be helpful to unpack — a lot of our listeners come from faith backgrounds or go to church, and that is its own cultural vortex. Many of us who are Christian or identify with certain religious faith — we know in Scripture, for example, there's this tension. We hear Jesus say things like, "Be ye perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect" — that's in the New King James Version, which is what I first heard. I remember when I first heard that as a kid, I was like, "dang, that's a high standard to measure up to. Who's gonna do that?" And that's Jesus saying that.

And then there are texts where it says that "He who knew no sin became sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God." That's a beautiful image of the exchange — God in his infinite love took our imperfection upon himself and gave us his perfection. So there's a beautiful truth that you are not perfect, and that's why God has given us Christ. That's a tension we often feel. I'd be curious — how do you all make sense of that tension? This call to grow, to live into or pursue this goal of Christlikeness or higher ethics or your true self (however you frame that ideal), and then the reality that God just accepts us as we are. Full stop. How do you all make sense of that?

Paul McMullen: There's tension because churches will feel different about how they culturally respond to those questions. You've got your grace-filled churches, then you've got your stricter "got to do it right" churches, and lots in between — some churches that don't seem to care at all. I do feel kind of like nerding out on theology in this question, but I remember studying about the Kingdom of God when I was in seminary, and talking about what they call the "already but not yet" nature of the Kingdom of God.

In Jesus, the Kingdom of God is showing up. It's breaking into the world, but it's not fully realized until he comes back. The same thing is happening on an individual level: God is at work in me. I have been made new. My identity is new. Ephesians 1 says we're seated with Christ already in the heavenlies. But then very clearly, we are being made new. We need to keep being filled with the Spirit.

One of the verses that speaks to both sides of this really well is in 1 John chapter 1. He says, "I'm writing you this letter so that you won't sin. But if any of you does sin, we have an advocate. And if you pretend that you don't sin, you're lying and you're making him out to be a liar. So walk in the light and admit that you've sinned, and then his blood will keep purifying you over and over again."

There's a lot there. He's basically saying — and I think the Bible takes both of those things very seriously — staying in our brokenness and sin is not something that the Bible ever promotes. But also, it very much promotes that Jesus has dealt with sin and is dealing with that, and that there is grace to keep experiencing, over and over again. When people go in a different direction, the story of the prodigal son is right there — God is waiting, ready to run out to them when they come back.

Laura Harrison: I thought very similarly. I was very fortunate to have a time in my life where I could do BSF — Bible Study Fellowship — for quite a long period of time when my kids were little. One of the major takeaways I had from BSF was that concept of God outside of time, and seeing us as completely renewed in Christ regardless of where we are in time, and how that was really kind of freeing. As much as I struggle, when I fall, God already sees that through the light of my completed self because I've accepted him.

So there's that whole — it's a little bit freeing, but it's also a little bit challenging too. Because it's like, that doesn't mean I can just go do whatever I want to do. I could, but that doesn't necessarily honor my relationship. That's where the tension comes. I could do whatever I want to do because I've accepted Christ, but how does that impact my relationship with Christ? And what does that relationship really look like?

So how do you make that perfection? But we can't make that perfection. We're always striving for it, because we were made to be perfect, but then we lost that perfect. There's that whole little conundrum that happens in your head, and you can spend years trying to resolve that — or you can just say, "you know what, I'm never really going to fully understand it, and it's okay that I don't, but I have to trust in faith that this is what God has provided for me to make it right." And that's a tough one.

John Lin: The whole notion that — and this is where I feel increasingly convinced — getting someone to change out of guilt or coercion or shaming them might yield some immediate results, but the long-term fruit of that is always short-lived, because it's not coming from within. They're afraid of something. It builds resentment.

Laura Harrison: And it builds resentment.

John Lin: But when there's a secure attachment, a secure relationship where you're like, "this person loves me, I am good" — and out of that, now I just want to please you, I want to live my life in a way that is more reflective of the relationship that we have. I really believe that is the starting point of the relationship with God that we are meant to have. Somehow along the line, it gets distorted, and it's like, "yeah, you've been accepted, now go earn it. Now spend the rest of your life trying to earn that acceptance that you were given as a gift" — which doesn't make any sense. The more that we can embrace this idea that I'm fully embraced, and Christ now walks with me toward this goal, this fuller life, this truer life, has been very transforming for me.

So how does a person go about loosening the grip of perfectionism on your heart, on your mind, in your life?

Paul McMullen: I'm going to say something that I feel like I say on most episodes too — Laura, I'm with you, I'm going to keep repeating myself — but I think we need to experience vulnerability and grace and acceptance with other people. We need to be able to take those places that our inner critic is calling us out in, sometimes very harshly, and be able to share vulnerably. And then also hear what other people are struggling with. It removes the facade of "I'm the only one that's doing this." It removes the fear of "if people knew that this was my reality, they would leave me, they would reject me."

You need to experience that, and having a safe group of people is very important. You also need people that will go there themselves. Sometimes you might be in a group — I was thinking of a particular group I was in where it was only one or two people that would be vulnerable, and everybody else would share stuff that felt super surface-y, and it destroyed the desire in me to be vulnerable. One person in a leadership role would share something like, "I forgot to hold open the door when I went into the mall for the old lady." That was their worst sin of the week.

John Lin: That is egregious.

Paul McMullen: I'm like, "I don't want to share. My goodness, are you serious?" It's not that people need to go make up stuff, but the people that have been really going deep with God and their story and in their walk — they delve into their heart in a way that, even if what's going on in them doesn't look as bad, the level that they get to in their heart makes you feel like they understand what it's like to struggle. There's just a difference. So you want to find people that are safe and vulnerable, that will give and receive grace, and that will go to the same depth that you are in sharing. That's just so powerful.

Laura Harrison: It's really hard when you feel like you're alone in it. A big part of what therapy does is help you normalize. I had a mom friend when my kids were little — I have three kids, I'm not going to say which one — who tended to do things very outside of the box. She had one like that as well. We would often call each other and say, "is this normal? He just did this, is this normal?" "Yeah, mine did that too, or mine did something very similar." Having people you can check in with, being able to normalize it, really does help bring some of that down. That connection with people that have seen you fail and love you anyway, and will walk beside you and walk through that with you — that's why community is so important.

I think with Christian community we have to be careful, because it's so easy to fall into works. It's so easy to say, "if we don't volunteer, if we don't show up in this way, if we don't put in all these hours to be Christian, then we're not doing it good enough." Allowing yourself to know — being in relationship with Jesus is enough. That's all it takes. If you did nothing else, that's all it takes. There isn't perfectionism that we need to achieve. It's already been achieved for us, and we just have to wait.

John Lin: I like what you said too — in those moments of failure, experiencing someone seeing that and saying, "hey, you're good, man. I'm still right here." Rather than, "how could you mess that up?" That experience, and that's something I've experienced and been on the receiving end of, has been so powerful. That is Christ's presence made concrete, made enfleshed, when someone can offer that to another individual who is wrestling with perfectionism, blunders or fails, and experiences "am I still okay? I felt like the world was going to crumble, but actually I'm still here. And I feel like I'm still here because you're here with me, giving me strength."

I feel like our drumbeat would be to say that that can happen — and needs to happen — both in the community at large, in our churches, in those spaces, and sometimes for a period with a therapist who can do that a little more surgically or in a focused way. But the end goal is still the same: to be connected, and to know that we are okay even in the midst of our mistakes and flaws and failures.

Is there anything you'd want to say to folks that are in relationship to a perfectionist? Any tips for folks who are like, "yeah, I have a child who's this way, or my spouse or friend is a perfectionist." What are ways that as a friend or parent you can care well for the perfectionist in your lives?

Laura Harrison: I think it depends on whether it's inwardly or outwardly focused. If they're trying to make you be perfect as well, that's a different relationship — a different pivot. But if they are hard on themselves because they're not perfect enough, or trying to present as perfect all the time, then I think having a lot of compassion for that person, because they're already beating themselves up more than you will ever beat them up. Showing up with compassion.

If it's someone who's trying to put it on — you'll often hear, "my father wanted the perfect family, so we had to do this, this, and this" — moms get bashed on a lot, so we'll bash on dads a little bit. When that's the case, then having really good boundaries and separating yourself from that. "This is a problem that they have, it's not a problem that I have." Really looking for the truth in that. That's really hard to do, especially if you're in a subordinate position, if you're a child in that relationship. You don't have the skills to do that until you get older, and then you have to go back and do that work. That's the hard pivot to make — when it's someone who is trying to force you to be perfect as well, so that they can feel satisfied within themselves that they have created something that is perfect.

Paul McMullen: That's good, Laura. I think being explicit about your acceptance in the relationship, regardless of what the person does. And the person won't believe you, and you have to keep doing it over and over and saying, "no, I'm here still. I still love you, I still care for you." You're helping them develop a new neural pathway. That's one way to think of it. You're digging a ditch in somebody's neural pathways where these experiences can go down a new pathway that feels different. It takes time, and it takes multiple experiences.

Laura Harrison: It's generational. A lot of times you're handed this — whether you're rebelling against someone who is super imperfect, or you were in that family that said, "we have to be perfect." You're handed this through generations. What Paul said about building new neural pathways is so important. Your brain develops a road and how you're supposed to react and what you're supposed to do. You have to start developing exit ramps for it. You have to say, "but there's a possibility it could go this way. There's a possibility it could go this way." If you just say, "no, that's not right," your brain is going to say, "yes, it is. That's what we've always done." But if you say, "well, maybe — maybe it could be over here just a little bit. Maybe there's a road adjacent that we might be able to take that doesn't take us so far away from what we believe is true, but just pushes this right over here." That's easier for the brain to accept.

John Lin: That's good. Well, we're pretty much out of time, so I'm going to wrap this up here. I'll end on a quote from Henri Nouwen, who wrote this in Life of the Beloved: "Over the years, I've come to realize that the greatest trap in our life is not success, popularity, or power, but self-rejection. Self-rejection is the greatest enemy of the spiritual life, because it contradicts the sacred voice that calls us the Beloved. Being the Beloved constitutes the core truth of our existence."

If you take nothing else from this conversation — whether you're a recovering perfectionist, just realizing you are a perfectionist, married to one, or raising one — realize that being the Beloved is the core truth of our existence. It's from that place that we can begin to live into greater freedom, maybe loosen the grip of perfectionism on our lives and those around us.

Paul, thank you for joining us today. I know Laura had to jump off. But as always, we want to end with this blessing: May God bless you and strengthen you as you do the work. Thank you.