How to Find Joy When Life Hurts

The Work Within Podcast

This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity and readability

John Lin: What's something bringing you joy these days? My assumption is that most of us really want more joy in our lives, but we're not always sure how to go about getting it or cultivating it. Is it about avoiding pain and minimizing suffering? Is it about eating more sushi and going on more vacations? Is it about forsaking all worldly pleasures and putting our attention on God alone? Is it about being loved and loving others?

As we have this conversation about joy, we hope you'll take away even just one thing that helps you cultivate more joy in your own life and in the lives of those around you.

I'm your host, John, and today I'm joined by my co-hosts Ly Tran and Laura Harrison. Both of them are licensed professional counselor supervisors, and I would also describe you both as joyful people. I don't know if you'd agree with that, but I would.

Ly Tran, LPC-S: Thank you. I appreciate that.

Laura Harrison, LPC-S: I try to be.

John: I'm glad you're both here. So let me start with that question: what's something bringing you joy these days?

Ly: I'll go first. I'm looking at a plate of cookies next to me, because my daughters made them for my birthday. I just turned forty-eight, and they took pity on me and made me a plate of cookies. That's giving me joy. Obviously part of it is that they're cookies, but mostly it's that they made them for me.

John: I want some. And Ly, I'm feeling sad now because I forgot to wish you a happy birthday. Happy birthday.

Ly: I appreciate that. I tried to ignore it as much as possible myself. I went into hiding on my birthday.

Laura: I wished him a happy birthday. Lean into it. After fifty, you really just embrace it. It gets more fun the older you get, I'm telling you.

John: I'm trying to embrace it more.

Laura: For me, the thing bringing me joy is my grandchild. You always see him on our Zoom calls. What brings me joy about that relationship is the potential of it. He's six months old, and I'm building trust with him and a place of safety, and creating meaning in that relationship, so he knows he has somewhere he can always go. I get to be that person for him, hopefully for the rest of his life.

John: That really comes through, Laura, when I see you with him.

Laura: Well, he's darn cute, so how could you not want to hang out with him?

John: That helps. For me, it's that my wife, Grace, and I have been able to spend more quality time together in recent months. We enjoy each other's presence, whether that's over a cup of coffee or on a walk. I say that knowing there have been seasons in our marriage that were really hard, when it felt like we were just coexisting. To have a season of deepened friendship, where we like spending time together and enjoy hearing what's happening in each other's lives, feels very meaningful. It brings me a lot of joy.

In your work with clients, do joy or happiness come up a lot?

Laura: Happiness comes up. It's something people say they wish they had. They say, "I'm missing this from my life. I'm missing happiness." I hear happiness way more than I hear joy. They say, "I want to feel better. I want to be happy," and they get stuck on that path. "I'm not happy." I think there's something interesting in the tension between happiness and being okay.

John: We'll come back to whether it's helpful to separate happiness and joy, and whether they're two sides of the same coin or different things altogether. Ly, you said people don't bring it up at first.

Ly: Not at first. I'm interested in that conversation too, because I see people confuse the two terms, and there's a large emphasis on happiness in our culture. But most of the time, when people come in for therapy, they're looking for relief from something: suffering, pain, heartache. It's usually pain that brings people into therapy.

That's where I find joy enters the mix. If joy is a diamond, then pain is the coal we start with. It takes pressure and time to become something more. I don't think people think of that when they first come to counseling, but that ends up being what happens.

John: I like that imagery. Joy is the diamond, and suffering is the coal, or the pressure.

Ly: The pressure is what we go through. The coal is the situation we find ourselves in, whether that's a broken marriage or some other struggle in life. Those are the necessary ingredients.

John: I imagine part of the work, then, is helping people look at their situation a little differently. "This situation is awful, and yet if I can stay in it long enough, something really good might come out of it." Would you say that's true?

Ly: Honestly, just some shop talk here: that's not something a therapist typically leads with. You don't say, "Stick with it and you'll get there." You're in the pain. Joy comes naturally as an outcome, usually near the tail end of therapy, when people begin to feel it and see it. That's when we can talk about it. I wouldn't lead with "If you stay in it long enough, you'll get to joy." I don't think people care at that point.

John: That's why I'm not a therapist and you are.

Laura: What I would say is that when clients come in in pain, I often encourage them, pretty early in our relationship, to find at least one small piece of joy in every day. Notice a flower. Notice a child's smile. Notice when your food tastes really good. Take that moment and treasure it. I think you can find joy in every single day.

Recently I went to the funeral of a friend's mother. My friend was very close to her mother. But there were moments during that day when we laughed, and moments when we were glad to be together. There was joy even in that very deep pain. It wasn't happiness. She was deeply in pain, but there were moments when she felt connected and supported, and she could find joy in that.

John: Let's dive into that, because we're already getting into the tension of what joy is exactly and how it relates to happiness. Let's start with the fact that the Bible talks a lot about joy. In Galatians 5, the fruit of the Spirit is love, then joy. Jesus wanted his followers to experience joy. He said, "I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete" (John 15:11). Paul writes that we're to be joyful always, which can feel hard. What does that mean? I think it's safe to say that being a joyful person is meant to be one of the hallmarks of the spiritual life. But there's a ton of confusion about how to get there.

This episode was inspired by a sermon I heard several Sundays ago at my church. The pastor was talking about some of the pathways to happiness or joy, and he referred to a framework by Martin Seligman, who is widely considered the father of modern positive psychology. Seligman offered an evidence-based framework for understanding the main pathways to happiness. He used "happiness" and "joy" interchangeably, from what I understand, and I found it helpful, so I wanted to hear what you think.

The three pathways are the pleasant life, the good life, and the meaningful life. The pleasant life focuses on positive emotions: pursuing things that bring you pleasure and enjoyment, like a good cup of coffee, a trip to the beach, a walk, pickleball, or a funny show. Those are the things we typically think of as making us happy. The good life is about active engagement in areas of personal strength, doing activities that align with your strengths and talents. You can think of it as flow. The third is the meaningful life, where you contribute to a bigger picture and a bigger purpose. That might look like dedicating your life to your core values and your core relationships.

Here's what's interesting. Doing more of the pleasant-life activities doesn't substantially increase joy, because eventually there's diminishing return. In the short run it might give you some joy here and there, but if you keep pursuing it over time, the return shrinks. The surest path to sustainable joy and happiness is to make the meaningful life the foundation, then add the good life, then sprinkle the pleasant life on top.

Think of a food pyramid. The meaningful life is the protein, the good life is the vegetables, and the pleasant life is dessert. Nothing wrong with dessert. I love dessert. But you don't want to make it the main thing. What do you think of that model? Any nuance or pushback before we talk about the implications?

Ly: I think this is a good way to look at the overlap between what we call happy and what we call joy. He's talking about dessert making you happy. I've got cookies over here, and they make me happy. But as you go up the scale into the meaningful, there's more depth, and I think that's where you start crossing the bridge into what looks like joy. So maybe he's highlighting a spectrum.

I would actually venture to say that meaning isn't even the pinnacle. Some of my clients have found meaning to be somewhat limited too. There's something beyond it that we have to stretch for to find deeper joy. Sometimes we go through seasons where we lose meaning and purpose, and even there lies a little window into deeper joy.

Laura: When I look at that, I think you could get lost in any one of those. You could get lost in the pleasant life, the good life, or the meaningful life, and put so much effort into one that you don't find joy or happiness. You could burn out in any of them.

Some people pursuing the meaningful life think it's selfish to do anything in the pleasant life, a word I don't like. "This is my meaning, this is my core, this is what's going to make my mark, and I don't have time for things that bring me pleasure and enjoyment." But then you're losing so much. I also hate the word balance, because I don't think it's a real thing. The question is how to make this work so that I have some equilibrium in my life. Which is just another word for balance, but it sounds better.

John: It has more syllables. I don't know if it sounds better.

Ly: Let's just call it clinical.

Laura: If I'm all in on meaning, I'm going to burn out and lose out on so much. So it's about being intentional in each of those areas, when it makes sense and for the amount of time that makes sense. They don't need to be a third, a third, and a third, but there needs to be some intentionality wrapped around each one.

John: I appreciate your emphasis on equilibrium. You can end up chasing meaning and purpose, all the deep things, and miss the flowers, the trees, the coffee, the simple pleasures that are gifts from God, meant to be enjoyed. The problem comes when we invert any one of these and make it an idol. So how would this model, and this way of understanding types of joy, help inform how we build our lives?

Ly: I'll go first. I like how Laura put that, because it requires validating and accepting that along the spectrum from happiness to joy, nothing is right or wrong, good or bad. It's about being able to move up and down the spectrum, to soak in the full range, from something that makes you happy to living in a space of joy.

What probably trips people up is that what they think is joy is really just things that help them feel content. There's an entire range of joy that goes missing and unrecognized. As a therapist, that's the part I'm interested in, because that's typically where the path goes in therapy: what are we missing here? If we're not paying attention, we never get to reap the harvest. One of my colleagues says it's wasted pain. If you don't lean into it and work through it, you never get to reap the fruit of the joy that comes with the pain. That's the end of the spectrum I'm more curious about. A lot of people see the happiness side, and it's easier to access. It's the other side that tends to go missing.

Laura: When people come in saying, "I just want to be happy again," I push back a little, because happy is an unsustainable emotion. You can't be happy all the time. You can be content. In good and bad circumstances, you can find contentment and acceptance, but you can't sustain happiness all the time. So making it your goal is somewhat unattainable. What does it look like to pursue something I can sustain?

I'd even argue that joy is almost a spark within contentment. When you're content, it's easier to find joy. When you can accept your circumstances, whatever they are, it's easier to notice the things coming alongside your pain and your harder circumstances that can bring you some joy. You're not striving so hard to reach an unattainable state of happiness.

Ly: I'd like to point out that we've inadvertently stumbled on the underlying plotline of Inside Out, which highlights the tension between the characters, Joy and, they call it Sadness, though I think there are elements of grief and pain in there too. Sorry, I'm about to spoil it for anyone who hasn't seen it, but it's been over ten years. It shows how we grow as people: we have to meld joy and sadness and pain and heartache together to have a fuller life. That's your point, Laura. Joy can't be on stage all the time. That's not reasonable, and it's not even healthy to think of it that way. It's very limited in scope.

John: Let's explore that more. When we face hardship, when we're going through a struggle, when life implodes and everything feels like it's falling apart, what does it look like to face that with honesty and openness, without minimizing it? Is it still possible to experience joy in those moments? Or does that come later, so we shouldn't expect to feel joy right then? Or can you find ways to experience joy even in the pit?

Ly: Can you give me a little leeway to go on for a bit? I want to weave this together, so I'm going to run right over here, Laura, and get out of the way.

Laura: That's fine. I'll sit back.

Ly: I'm going to pair two stories together, and there will be some imagery that comes with it. John, you've heard me refer to this before. This past week, for my birthday, we got Indian food. I love Indian food, and I ordered one dish extra spicy because I love spicy food. No one else in the family can eat it. My wife and I had it, but the kids didn't want it. While I was getting it ready, my seven-year-old said, "I want to try that one." I said, "Buddy, it's hot." I'd tasted it, and it was pretty hot. But he insisted. And I thought, you know what, I want my son's flavor palate to expand, so I'm going to give him this really hot curry.

He eats it, and he's sweating bullets and drinking all his water and having the hardest time with it. And then he asked for a second helping. I said, "All right, man. Send it." And while he's eating, I'm thinking, this is hard for him, it's painful, but I appreciate it, because it expands your flavor palate. It lets you taste the different nuances of the dish and appreciate the spices and the complexity. My daughter asked, "Why would you do that to yourself?"

I think of pain and joy the same way. In the moment, it's very painful, and you wonder why you would do this. But it expands your ability to experience the full range of the flavors of life. That's the analogy I'm drawing.

Now let me add a story that shows how it plays out. This one is going to be tender for me, because it happened just a few weeks ago. As you know, we just passed what would have been the tenth birthday of my son. He passed away ten years ago, when he was an infant. Part of our tradition is that every year we watch a video together as a family, a montage of his pictures and the few memories we have.

This year, I'm watching with my family, with all the things that connect us to him, and by the end of the video I'm a sobbing mess. I'm weeping. My kids see my tears. My wife is crying too. And I remember thinking, I'm so thankful for these tears. That's joy for me, because I feel connected. I can experience the full range of life, from pain to utter joy, just by remembering my son. That's a wonderful thing. I was so thankful for those tears and for that experience.

Ten years ago I would have said there's no way anyone could ever feel that way. I'm sharing this because I remember talking with another family who had also lost a child. They told me, "One day you'll experience these tears and you'll think joy. You'll feel joy." And I remember thinking, that's nonsense. There's no way. That's not possible. But it's true. It is absolutely true.

That's consistently what I experience when I walk with people in their pain. They never see it at the beginning. That's why I would never say, "You're going to feel joy." You can't hear that when you're in the middle of it. It's too painful. But if you allow it to take its course and stretch your heart, you get to a point where you realize the other side of it is joy.

And to go back to Laura's point, you're not meant to live there. You can't eat spicy food all the time. That's not good for you. But the ability to taste it is what lets you experience the fullness of life. If you can't take spicy food, if you can't let yourself feel it, then your range is that small, and you have a very limited life. I think that's why so many people are searching for something more. They think happiness is it, but that's not actually what it is. It's the ability to feel that fullness. So that's my spiel, weaving some different themes together. I'll leave it there and see what you think.

Laura: I think that's the balance of two things existing at the same time in the same space. One of the grounding exercises I use with clients all the time is to say, "Let's talk about what is true right now, in this very moment." What's true doesn't always have to be positive. True can be negative. But let's see if we can pair it with something positive that's also happening at the same time. "I lost my job, and I have a family who deeply loves and cares for me." Both of those are true at the exact same time. One is very painful, and one is grounding and stabilizing.

Looking for that blending of emotions and feelings is so important, because people get stuck in the negative. Our brains are wired for it. They're wired to seek out what's threatening my body and what's keeping me from being safe, and then to get rid of it or protect myself from it. Many people stay there. The active work is to keep pairing it with what is also true: what is also positive, what is also grounding, what also brings meaning.

And you're right that in those days and weeks, and sometimes months or years after a tragic thing happens, you can't say, "But you're going to find some joy in that too." What you can do is notice. For clients going through divorce, I'll say it's going to be a long time before you feel like you have your feet on the ground. Think of it as if a tornado wiped your house away and you're rebuilding from scratch. But let's look for what is also true. Look at the people around you. Find something positive to put alongside this. It doesn't have to be big. A little thing will start to ground you faster. And it doesn't negate the bad thing that happened. That bad thing still happened. It's true, and let's name it and say it and talk about it.

John: Ly, I really appreciate how you articulated that, because it rings true. It highlights the stretching that's required, the capacity to embrace pain and suffering. If we let that take its course, there can be something almost shocking about it. It's shocking to hear you say you've come to a place where those were tears of joy amid the sadness. It's mysterious.

We often hear in Scripture that joy comes in the morning. So there's the mourning and the suffering, and then joy comes in the morning, and we think, "Okay, a twelve-hour period. I'll sleep on it and I'll be good." In your story, that's been a ten-year process. And I'm sure it will continue to evolve.

I'm sitting with the reality that there are times in our lives when we may not be able to access joy, and that's actually okay. You don't have to put on the smiley face. You don't have to find the thing that brings you joy in that moment. But if you're in that space right now, know that there are people who have walked that journey too and can testify to something at the end of it. Although in that moment, that may not be what you need to hear.

Ly: I think this is why it's not commonplace in our culture to lament together. We tend to keep it private or hidden, or at best bring it to therapy. But when we allow ourselves to be honest and transparent and authentic, and to share that burden communally, that's when we begin to see the joy that comes from connection with other people.

That's something I'd encourage for our listeners and for all of us: lean into being honest with yourself and with one another, and bear one another's burdens. As you hear me talk about it, you might think, "That fits my soul, because I feel it too." Then we start giving words to it. We start giving permission for it. We start validating that this is normal, that this is actually how life is meant to be lived. And in being honest about the struggle we have as human beings, there's some hidden joy. It's not appropriate to say we feel happy about it, but there's a sense of joy and fullness that comes with it.

Laura: I started working with you ten years ago, right after that happened, and I've watched you be so vulnerable in groups, with people you don't know and people you do. You've walked through that journey and talked deeply about how it affected you over time. It has made me a much better leader, because I'm able to walk in that space as well, much better than I would have if it hadn't been modeled for me.

So my encouragement to others is this: as you move into hardship or trials, share that with the people around you and allow yourself to be vulnerable, because it creates such deep connection. I trust him way more because I know that if something's going wrong, he's going to tell me. We have a deeper connection because of that. When you can create the space to say, "I am absolutely hurting here," that also creates a bit of joy, because it develops the kind of connection you don't find very often in this world. And it's important.

John: I think that speaks to level three, the meaningful life, because that's when you live in coherence with your deepest values and relationships, in a connected way. That's the whole Harvard study. The people who are happiest over the long term are the most connected. Not because they have tons of friends, but because they have a few very close friends and live in authentic connection with people who know them and whom they know well, with reciprocity and mutuality.

Now I'd like to shift to what it looks like to cultivate joy in everyday life. But first, to reiterate: for those hard and invariably difficult seasons, and as therapists I'm sure that's the world you swim in, cultivating joy means learning to hold the really hard stuff. It's learning to experience a full range of flavors. That's paradoxical, because most of us would say, "Just focus on the pleasant emotions. That's how you cultivate more joy." But really, it's learning to experience sadness, grief, lament, hopelessness, all the brokenness.

Laura: All the stuff your son was experiencing when he was eating that spicy food.

John: He's like, "Dad, you betrayed me."

Ly: We actually had salad too, and because it was my birthday, I added a bunch of arugula. It's bitter, and they hate bitter. But I told them it makes it so much better.

Laura: You're so mean to your children.

John: You're trying to teach them all these spiritual lessons. Life is bitter. Children, eat the arugula.

Ly: Get used to it. Learn.

John: Okay. For people going through the regular seasons of life, where of course there's always some struggle, but it's the everyday: working, taking care of the kids, life that's neither super low nor super high. What does it look like to cultivate more joy in those seasons?

Ly: Laura, you mentioned this earlier, and I'll echo it. We live such hurried lives. We're in a culture where we can occupy ourselves with so much stimuli. Cultivating joy requires slowing down and observing. And again, who wants to lean into discomfort? That's the reason distractions exist. It's why we have things like Facebook and YouTube. They distract us from having to feel the thing.

Cultivating joy means creating a spirit of silence and observation and a willingness to lean into some of the discomfort. Not for long periods of time, but just getting used to observing. What does my body feel? What are my emotions telling me? Start cultivating a discipline around that, because it lets you stay in it longer. That's probably what I'd say about the day-to-day process.

Laura: And there are so many people I'll ask, "What do you enjoy?" and they can't answer. Or "Who are your three most important relationships?" and they come up with one or two, or maybe only one. And often it's not who you'd think. It's not the people closest to them.

To experience the pleasant life, the good life, and the meaningful life, you're going to need to do some introspection. You need to know who you are. Know what you enjoy. Know what your strengths are. Understand what you need to grow. And really know what your core values and core relationships are, because a lot of times we prioritize things that aren't any of that. We prioritize distractions, or we prioritize the demands somebody else puts on us without realizing it's not even what we want to be doing. So it's about understanding what you should say yes to and what you should say no to. But you can't do that if you don't know who you are and haven't spent time getting to know yourself. There may be a lot of things you're saying yes to that you don't need to, and you're missing out on joy because of it.

John: I appreciate that a lot, because these aren't simple techniques. It starts with basic self-awareness: knowing what makes me tick and what makes me come alive. You'd think that would be obvious, but it's not. I think about how many years of my life I've spent chasing what I thought I was supposed to chase. As I've tried to reorient, I've realized I have to think about what's actually at my core.

I was sitting with a friend over coffee recently, and he articulated six or seven core values off the top of his head. He prays them every day. And they weren't short ones like "love" or "family." They were clear and articulate. I remember thinking, I can't do that, not at this point. I'd have to really sit down. I've written two core values, and I know there are others, so I'm starting to do that exercise. But it's not automatic. I wonder how many people listening could tell me right now, in a clear way, what they're really living by. Because it sounds like in order to have joy, we have to live in alignment with that.

Laura: Somebody's going to listen to this and say, "That's too much work. I'm never going to figure all that out. It'll take way too much time." I want to make sure you know you don't have to do it all in one sitting. You don't have to sit down and write the manifesto of your core values.

John: Could you ask AI to do it for you? "Chat, help me out here."

Laura: It depends on how much you use AI. If you're on there a lot, it might know you better than you know yourself.

What's important is that you can do it in small bits. This month, identify one core value. By the end of two or three months, you'll have two or three. Give yourself time, because you're not going to get to know yourself in one afternoon of intensive work. Allow yourself to develop a friendship with yourself. That takes time, investment, and commitment.

John: I'm glad you said that, because I'm someone who would hear "you need core values" and think I need to do it today, and then I can't, so I say, "Forget it." It feels too overwhelming. So it's good to do it in bite-sized chunks. It's about moving in a direction.

Ly: This is true of so many facets of life. Think about exercise. If you think, "I've got to lose twenty pounds today and run X miles," you're never going to do it. So you move into a space where you say, "I just need to show up today, even if I only do one thing." You build off that. You develop a rhythm and a cadence, and you start learning yourself. You start understanding what you're capable of, and where the scar tissue is.

As a mental health professional, I think of it this way. In the beginning, I committed to just sitting for five minutes and writing down a few words. I made that a daily rhythm, and I did it more regularly, and I journaled. You know that during my season of loss, journaling was the only thing I could do. I would try to log my experiences and move myself into those spaces for a little longer each time. Each time I came out with something new that I'd learned about myself, about the world, about life. You can't do those things overnight, and you don't want to try to do them all at once either. Just little bits.

Laura: And losing twenty pounds in one day is impossible. Unless you cut something off, like an arm.

Ly: Deadly. Not the positive kind of lethal.

John: All right, I see we're about out of time. Let me distill what we've discussed into a few bite-sized pieces. In the pursuit of joy, a joyful life, expand your emotional palate. Order the spicy food from time to time. Slow down enough to notice and take inventory of what's going on, what's driving you, and what's important to you. Know yourself, but you don't have to do that in one afternoon. Do it in bite-sized chunks. And as you get to know what brings you joy and who you really want to invest in, you can begin to take incremental steps so that your life lines up with those values. Anything else you want to add as we wrap up?

Ly: That's a good summary.

Laura: Pretty good.

John: Thank you both. I always appreciate our conversations together. I have things I want to sit with and try to implement in my own life as I cultivate more joy for myself, my family, and those around me.

If you're listening and you're looking for a Christian, faith-based, but clinically trained therapist, we would love to help. Reach out to us, and we can help you find someone who's a good fit. And if you enjoyed the show, would you take a second to leave us a rating or review? It really helps, because we want to make mental health resources accessible to more and more people.

Let's close with a blessing. May God bless you, and may God strengthen you as you do the work. Thanks.

Looking for a clinically trained Christian therapist? Learn more at watershedinitiative.com.